We recently interviewed Birds Of Paradise Theatre director Robert Softley Gale, about his time at UofG, and the issues affecting disabled students on campus.
"Start somewhere. The fear of not knowing where to start, can stop you doing so much, and that doesn’t help anyone. I’d much rather you try something and get it wrong, than you just don’t try anything."
In December, as part of Disability History Month, our VP Student Support, Frank, and our Disability Equality Officer, Zainab, met with Robert Softley Gale to ask him about his time here at the University.
They asked him: what’s changed, what hasn’t, and his thoughts and advice for current disabled students.
Robert is a writer, performer, and director who has worked in Scottish film and theatre for over 25 years. He is the Chief Exec and Artistic Director of Birds of Paradise Theatre Company – one of the country’s leading inclusive theatre companies. He is also a UofG graduate and was the elected Disability Equality Rep on the Students’ Representative Council during his time here.
In June 2025, he was awarded an honorary Doctor of Letters (DLitt) by the University for his services to Scottish theatre.
When you think back to your time studying at Glasgow, what was everyday student life like for you? – Frank
I joined Glasgow Uni in 1998, so, we’re now looking at 27 years ago. For me student life was hectic. I’d gone to a special needs school in Glasgow, that was specifically for disabled young people, and then at the age of 16, I moved to a mainstream school.
I was going for my Highers, in 5th year and 6th year, to a mainstream school, and that was quite a big culture shock, because the special school was quite small and protected. When I went into the mainstream school where it was bigger, I just had to get on with it.
So then, coming to Glasgow Uni, it was more of that sense of get on with it. Make it work.
Obviously, the University was smaller back then, but still felt big, and it was quite a big thing to get your head round.
The Disability Support Service was much smaller too. I think it was only one person, plus an admin person. The number of disabled students back then was much smaller as well. Certainly, the number of people who identified as being disabled was a lot smaller.
Back then, they just hadn’t really thought about navigating the campus, so it was often a case of trying to discover for the first time, 'How can we make this work?'. I was having to go in via fire exits or get in the back way just to make it work.
So yeah, it was tiring. It was hard work, but also exciting, and it was quite a lot of fun.
I wanted to ask what kind of like barriers you came up against? You mentioned physical accessibility issues. – Zainab
Yeah. It was mainly that. Obviously, it's an old campus, and getting around is difficult. When I was in my second year, the University bought me a power wheelchair, just for use at the Uni. So, that was kept on campus, and I could drive in every day, get into park here, get round the campus, and then go back to my car at the end of that day.
So that overcame a lot of the geographical barriers. This campus is pretty damn hilly, and pretty difficult to get around, so that really helped with that. And then getting into buildings, getting around buildings, you just had to work it out, if it went all wrong.
I was probably the first physically disabled student, in a lot of these courses. So, we just had to go, 'Can they move lectures, can they move tutorials', things like that. It’s a funny thing because, it was having to sort of, navigate a lot of it for the first time.
Also, because I was one of the few disabled students, they were able to use things that were bespoke to me. In some ways it was easier, but in some ways, it was more difficult.
How did you first get involved with the SRC? – Frank
I think it was my second year at Glasgow. I think in first year, you’re just being careless, and your head's like 'Where am I? Who am I? What am I doing?'. In second year, I think I stood for the Disability Students’ Rep and was elected to that, so that got me involved in the SRC.
At one point we were trying to get a policy passed about access and inclusion which I think hadn’t been done before with the SRC. So, I was the first person to go 'We have to adopt some sort of policy around access'. That must have been about ‘99, or 2000,
"You can see that more people, more diverse people, feel part of this place. That wasn’t the case 27 years ago."
Looking around campus today, what feels most different to you compared with when you were a student and what feels familiar? – Zainab
I think when you look at the new buildings that have been put up, they feel radically different. 25, 27 years ago, it was all old buildings, that are, inherently hard to get around.
New buildings are just easier to get around, but there’s also something quite, emotional, it’s hard to explain, but the thing about spaces where, access has been built into it from the start. You sort of feel like you belong there. You feel you’re part of that space, and that you matter.
There’s something about the new buildings I’ve been to in the last couple of months where I go 'It’s great', because you can see that more people, more diverse people, feel part of this place. That wasn’t the case 27 years ago.
"A Disabled Students’ Society with 80 people, sort of blows my mind, because you know, I’m remembering a time when there were three disabled students on campus."
Is there anything on campus now that surprises you or seems like real progress? - Frank
So, essentially when I was here, it was just me, and a small number of other students. Now, there’s a real body of disabled students who have all got access needs and are all working together to get on. That sense of community wasn’t here when I was here, so it’s great to see that now.
That feels like a really important step. I’d say in some ways my experience was quite isolating, and quite lonely. I had friends and got on with stuff, but I felt like, one of the few disabled students at that time.
People use the word inclusion a lot, but what does meaningful inclusion actually look like to you? – Zainab
How long do you have? I think inclusion is a word that’s been used a lot and becomes a little bit meaningless. Because it means different things to different people.
When I started here, we used to talk about inclusion as being part of something. So, whatever you need to make you feel part of a bigger group.
And that’s partly about physical access because, if you can’t get into a place then it’s really hard to be a part of it. It’s partly about intellectual access, you know, if you can’t access information.
But more than those, it’s a feeling, it’s a sense, it’s not that one day, you’re excluded, and the next day you’re included it’s not that black and white. It's much more a felt thing, that happens over time.
[On Inclusion] "A lot of organisations do it because they feel like they have to or, to meet a funding criteria, or to conform to legalities. And, if you’re doing it for that reason, you’re probably not going to get it right."
From your perspective, what do organisations often get wrong when trying to be inclusive? – Frank
I think they need to work out why they want to be inclusive. If you don’t understand the why and the motivation for it, I think quite often, you’re going to get it wrong. A lot of organisations do it because they feel like they have to or, to meet a funding criteria, or to conform to legalities. And, if you’re doing it for that reason, you’re probably not going to get it right.
There’s a real sense I have that, inclusion, diversity, makes things better. We’re just better if we’re more diverse. There’s a real argument where, any sort of organisation will go further if you get more perspectives coming into it. So, you need to really go into why you want to be more diverse, why you want to include more people, and hold that value close. Then I think, you’ll get a much better outcome.
So much of student life happens beyond academia: Clubs, socials, volunteering. Why is it essential that those spaces are designed with disabled students in mind? – Zainab
Well, it’s like you said, those other parts of university life beyond academia are, maybe I won’t be popular for saying this, but I think are more important than the academic part.
How you develop as a person, the things that I learned at uni outside of my academic coursework, the things I learned as part of things like the SRC and part of things like clubs. Those are skills that I use all the time, working with people, managing people – these are the skills that are important.
So, to me that’s why university life, or any sort of life beyond school, needs to be as accessible as possible to that wide range of people. Your previous question about organisations being inclusive... if that space before that isn’t accessible, then you’re not going to get into that organisation, you’re not going to have the skills or the knowledge or the ability, to get into the company.
So, it’s really about the pathway, and the stepping stones to get there. My perspective is the University, the clubs and societies, the SRC, are all part of that stepping stone, to that wider life, that wider experience.
Are there any examples from your work with Birds of Paradise where improving accessibility or culture made a notable difference for disabled people? – Frank
I hope so. Back in 2018, we did some work in Rwanda. We went over to Rwanda, twice in the same year to work with a group of 7 disabled performers, in Kigali, the capital. They had been coming together to do a bit of work, but they hadn’t really [thought] on what they wanted to become.
We went over there to work with them. You can use your skill to tell stories and to tell perspectives, as a disabled person, in a country like Rwanda, where that voice hasn’t been heard. So, we went out first in February, went back in November, they then presented a piece as part of an East Africa Arts Festival, with a massive stage in Uganda.
And that really felt like 'Yes, listen to how we can have an impact.' Not just in Scotland, or in the UK, but internationally to enable disabled people to tell stories. Stories are so much part of our culture and, how we see each other, and how we relate to each other is all through stories. So, to enable disabled people, in somewhere like Rwanda to tell their stories felt like a real way to have an impact on quite a big scale.
"Enable yourself to be a part of something that is a bigger group. Cause that’s how we get strength, that’s how we get to move forward."
What would you want current disabled students at Glasgow to know or hear from someone who's been through the same experience? – Zainab
I think, it's just about perseverance. University life is always going to be hard, it’s always going to be challenging, there’s always going to be things that you come up against, and if it wasn’t, then what’s the point – there needs to be a bit of challenge.
Hopefully, now, university life as a disabled student, you’ve got that sense of community. You’ve got that sense of not doing it by yourself. So, I guess it would be about leaning into that and being open to being involved in that community.
You’re not on your own, so know you’re not on your own. Enable yourself to be a part of something that is a bigger group. Cause that’s how we get strength, that’s how we get to move forward.
"I guess, there's a sense of how we can go beyond the minimum – if you take a 'minimum' to mean enabling disabled students to be really a part of something."
If you had a few minutes with University leadership, what would you want them to understand about disabled students' lives, especially beyond lecture theatres? - Frank
The people leading the University, are obviously minding a lot of competing priorities, finances and resources. But essentially, disabled students want what every student wants. You want to get the degree, you want to get on with the work, you want to enjoy yourself while you’re here. And I guess, there's a sense of how we can go beyond the minimum – if you take a 'minimum' to mean enabling disabled students to be really a part of something.
We can overthink any decision, thinking about numbers, or thinking about, what can they check for. And, in some ways, yes checks are very important, funding’s very important. But they also need to think about it more holistically and go 'How do we enable disabled students to really feel like a part of this place, and a bigger part, of something that’s beyond themselves?'.
To me, that’s the conversation to have, how can we – it goes back to that word, inclusion – how do we really bring about inclusion for disabled students, and make that a real kind of simple thing?
Looking back, is there anything you wish had existed for you as a student that would have made the biggest difference? – Zainab
I think, the sense of community would’ve made a massive difference. A Disabled Students’ Society with 80 people, sort of blows my mind, because you know, I’m remembering a time when there were three disabled students on campus.
There weren’t three disabled students, there were obviously more, but people if they weren’t identifying as disabled, or weren’t out as being disabled, or weren't recognised as being disabled. So, I get that the numbers were not quite as stark but now to see the number of people, who take that identity, who see themselves in that way.
That would’ve made a massive difference to me. But it was a very different time. There was so much more stigma around that identity, there was so much more fear around barriers.
"It’s really not rocket science. Cause, if it was, I wouldn’t be doing it!"
You recently led our Building Inclusive Clubs Workshop. What would you say to student groups who want to be more inclusive but aren't sure where to start? – Frank
Start somewhere. The fear of not knowing where to start, can stop you doing so much, and that doesn’t help anyone. I’d much rather you try something and get it wrong, than you just don’t try anything.
Because we can all spend the next ten years going 'Oh my god, what to do', stopping you from doing anything. Try something, there’s so much out there now, and so many resources and so much support, there’s so many other societies that are doing stuff.
Find out, do a quick Google, use a bit of AI, you know, whatever. It’s really not rocket science. Cause, if it was, I wouldn’t be doing it!
Some of the easiest stuff to do is make the first step, ask people what they need, and then see what you can do to respond to that. It’s a very simple conversation, that can then become very complicated, but it can start in a very simple way.
Thank you so much for joining us today, Robert – Frank, Zainab
Thanks for having me, thank you very much.
- Recorded December 10th, 2025. Words from Robert Softley Gale, edited by SRC Communications.